WingColors Thread: Let Us Discuss Race

Let Us Discuss Race

dubsar — Fri, 25 Jul 2008 23:01:37

Prejudice, regardless of its apparent cause or motive, stems from fear and ignorance, oft one more than the other, and oft enough in equal parts.

You can quote me on that.

Let Us Discuss Race

RightOn — Fri, 25 Jul 2008 01:20:32

Ahhh true, didn't think about that.

I could just see a pale blonde kid marking off "African-American" and getting a snotty comment from a college registrar.

Let Us Discuss Race

Scrivs — Fri, 25 Jul 2008 01:12:54

Well from my understanding is that most of the stuff he gets (he's still in high school) is already pre-filled with his race, but in the future I'm assuming he would put other. Most forms I fill out now have multi-racial as an option.

Let Us Discuss Race

RightOn — Fri, 25 Jul 2008 00:46:07

Does he ever get a negative reaction if he marks Black/African American on a form?

Let Us Discuss Race

Scrivs — Thu, 24 Jul 2008 23:13:34

That was the old way of course, now more and more people deal with bi-racial people in correct terms. When I was back in school, "other" wasn't an option so I always put darkness...I mean black. My brother, who is as white as can be, blonde hair and blue eyes is also labeled as black. He has the best of everything.

Let Us Discuss Race

RightOn — Thu, 24 Jul 2008 23:08:35

Weirdnessocity.

Let Us Discuss Race

Scrivs — Thu, 24 Jul 2008 23:06:09

Because typically you go with the father's race. And if you look black and have black in you, they are going to consider you black. Society.

Let Us Discuss Race

RightOn — Thu, 24 Jul 2008 23:00:41

Speaking of interracial marriages...

Why is it that Barrack Obama, the offspring of interracial parents, is considered "Black" when he is in fact a mulatto.

Let Us Discuss Race

Scrivs — Thu, 24 Jul 2008 22:28:03

Well let's be clear about a couple of things:

1) It definitely depends on where you live in this country to know what type of racism you have experienced. In the larger Florida cities, Tampa, Orlando, Miami the melting pot is so huge that yes there is racism, but to a much lesser degree than the other southern cities or hell any other cities in Florida.

2) If you grew up around blacks and were white (as an example) you might have seen some of the stuff they have gone through. Mike for example has been with me in Austin, Texas where I wasn't allowed into a bar because of my pants being too "baggy". He was visibly more upset than I was because I saw the ignorance that was being displayed and learned from my parents to just move on.

I won't even describe the story of a cop pulling me over for my license plate light being out. That isn't a typo.

3) I can't say how the life of a fat person is because I'm not one so who am I too judge? I can't say that the life of a white person growing up in the Bronx is harder than a black person growing up in Montana. We all know there can be difficulties in all our lives and there is no scale that we can base it on. A black person's life is much easier (usually) when they are in a black neighborhood and the same is applied to all races.

If you want to compare apples to apples and say that you know a black person who was shot for being black and white people don't get that treatment, you can just as easily find a white person being shot for being white. It just so happens that because white people dominate this country demographically that the scales will tip in their favor, but with Spanish becoming our national language and inter-racial dating becoming more of an occurrence the scales are tipping.

From a personal standpoint though, if you have rocks being thrown at your house I'm going to say you had a harder life than me. That doesn't mean all whites have harder lives and vice versa. Some of us never have to experience racism at all and so to those people the lives of others might be much harder.

Let Us Discuss Race

RightOn — Thu, 24 Jul 2008 21:53:37

It's just an opinion, mine. You can try to make me look like I have no right to it all you want

Please quote where I said you have no right to an opinion. If I recall...

I think it is not for people who are Caucasian to opine about an experience they have never had.

...you tried that one.

Let Us Discuss Race

cooper — Thu, 24 Jul 2008 21:46:12

The bigger picture has no bearing on my feeling on this particular issue.

It is much easier to cloud this very succinct issue by trying to encompass the history of the world, which is really not reasonable in a small forum. There are volumes written on it and thousands of academic papers.I answer questions on what my opinion is and because you do not like it you want me to some how qualify my answers via by analyzing it invalidating it because the world has a history of racism. History is only as good as what it teaches us, when used to excuse us it is nothing.

It's just an opinion, mine. You can try to make me look like I have no right to it all you want, and you can insist I reread the history of the world, but it is still my opinion. Do you really think small message board can encompass all the books and discussions,and years of thought which which come with forming an opinion on an issue such as this?

Ozone: I just had no idea what you were saying or why you said it. It sounded pretty strange to me, as if you meant to say "For a Caucasian individual, you seem quick to blame "whites" for the faults of many..." as RO suggested, why didn't yOU just say it.

Let Us Discuss Race

RightOn — Thu, 24 Jul 2008 21:31:11

I'll toss in the definition of racism I use to qualify peoples actions before jumping to conclusions.

a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others.

If I believe I am a better artist than Jim (who happens to be black) because he only uses Crayons and can't even operate a computer... then I'm just thinking highly of myself (validated or not).

If I believe I am a better artist than Jim because I am white and he is black then my motivations are racially biased and can be construed as racist in nature.

Let Us Discuss Race

fuscom — Thu, 24 Jul 2008 21:03:17

"...a certain dumb fuck..."

To even begin to battle racism, we first need to address our prejudices.

It's one thing to disagree, it's far another to classify.

Let Us Discuss Race

Ozone42 — Thu, 24 Jul 2008 20:39:01

No sarcasm intended. Clearly I'm confused.

Let Us Discuss Race

RightOn — Thu, 24 Jul 2008 19:39:21

If that was supposed to be sarcastic the sarcasm was lost on me.

For a Caucasian individual, you seem quick to blame "whites" for the faults of many...

Racism isn't a black/white thing... there are multitudes of examples of race wars and ethnic battles and racism that have NOTHING to do with black or white people.

Racism isn't just an American thing... I'm trying to get you to discuss the larger picture here and you keep focusing on a spec of dust in the history of racism and slavery.

Let Us Discuss Race

cooper — Thu, 24 Jul 2008 19:25:09

Right On: I don't believe I've ever said a thing about guilt as a reason for affirmative action. I just don't happen to agree with you on the issue. There is no one to say who is right here, and there are as many arguments on both sides. I've read most of them and I've come to my decision, as you've come to yours.

Most private universities have used legacy based admission policies as no different.

Race-based admission programs are premised on a lack of minority access to higher education based on historical and socio-economic factors that have resulted in minority students performing worse than their white peers academically. At this time I'm for affirmative action.

Affirmative action in case over the last few years has changed due to Supreme Court rulings hiring quota's are illegal in many states are they not? I am thinking about affirmative action being instituted by the various education systems.

Ozone: "Cooper, please forgive me for being dense. All this time I thought you were Caucasian for some reason."

If that was supposed to be sarcastic the sarcasm was lost on me.

Let Us Discuss Race

RightOn — Thu, 24 Jul 2008 18:11:46

Cooper,

I find it truly disturbing that you feel that the actions of few represent the many. Racism isn't a "white" thing and I for one bear no guilt for what someone else's ancestors may or may not have done.

My ancestors immigrated here from Prussia during the 1870's... no one in my family tree owned slaves (that we are aware of) so I don't bear any form of associative guilt that you seem to think I need to bear by merit of the color of my skin.

Your personal politics and disdain for the evil white men running this country (along side a host of colleagues and peers of non Caucasian blood) worries me.

Affirmative Action is bunk and bear no relation to legacy enrollments like you slyly referenced there. You'll have your own messiah to worship here soon enough.

Accepting or hiring someone to fill a racial quota should be INSULTING, not encouraged. If I found out I was hired onto a job not for my merit and accomplishments, but because I was needed to fill a quota to keep the lawyers at bay, I would be embarrassed.

Let Us Discuss Race

Ozone42 — Thu, 24 Jul 2008 17:50:59

Cooper, please forgive me for being dense. All this time I thought you were caucasian for some reason.

Affirmative action is by definition racist. It propagates racism rather than works to solve it. We've had this discussion on here at least once before. It's a well intended, but very very stupid system. If we're truly to make progress in such matters, any program or legislation has to be based on solid morality and equality. A program that elevates one's chances based on race is not equal or moral. It's knee jerk, and it's ineffective. If you're one to believe in sins of the father are sins of the son, then I can see how it can work for you, but I personally find the morally abhorrent.

What does it do? Ideally it forces a racist employer to hire someone against his will. Yes that sounds less than ideal right? On the plus side that means the object of the racism has a chance that he might not have before. This also means that he's now working for a racist that has even further resentment due to being required to hire him against his own judgement. This is the ideal case! I call this the ideal case because if the employer is not a racist then there would never be an issue in the first place.

In a case where you don't have a racist at the helm of your organization (be it educational, commercial, whatever), the concept is irrelevant at best.

I have to say. I don't actually understand racism. I get stereotypes, and I use them as a baseline for what I might expect out of a group of people. They're my own stereotypes based on my own experiences, and I realize there are always exceptions. I don't think racism will ever be entirely wiped out, unless race itself is wiped out. With the ease of communication worldwide today I think we're quickly moving to a place of less ignorance.

Let Us Discuss Race

cooper — Thu, 24 Jul 2008 09:43:07

It was a bad example as I stated, not a cheap shot.

Slave labor created wealth for Americans,it was the base of our economy for years. Most black Americans were set free with the shirt on their back and still enslaved by the limitations set upon them, racism, treated like third class citizens for a hundred of years post slavery. The fact that some African Americans were able to overcome that does not negate the fact that the socioeconomic conditions of the African Americans today is directly related to slavery and the continued oppression after slavery.

You may say that poor whites were able to get educated they were able to move up etc. Poor blacks were not able to, not for a very long time.

If a poor white person couldn't make it is was not because they were sent to segregated schools, not able to work in certain places etc it was directly related to their ability and their ambition, it was not the case with African Americans.

The legacy of this is what we have today and the legacy has been devastating.

I don't think demanding an education is even an option, though coming out and saying "what we did was wrong, we fucked you for generations upon generations getting rich off the backs of your family - because we still treated you abhorrently, used the process of "redemption" to basically remove the effect of any votes you dare make, and didn't consider treating you like human beings until on into the late 1950's.

I fear the restitution at this point is virtually useless but am for affirmative action, which really is no different than Harvard letting in a certain dumb fuck as a legacy admission . They call it affirmative action for the rich and famous. Only in this case the legacy of slavery.

Let Us Discuss Race

RightOn — Thu, 24 Jul 2008 08:17:49

I don't believe for one second that most Caucasians in this country have experienced what African Americans have experienced regarding racism... not to mention they weren't dragged here in chains, oppressed for two hundred years, freed with no restitution, and eons later still couldn't pee in the same public bathrooms as white men or vote.

First, you're isolating your scope of racism to American history... Jews, Egyptians, Romans, Germans, etc. etc. have all been victims of the slave class structure of societies come and gone.

What about the Native Americans? We wholesale SLAUGHTERED a race of people because we wanted to expand our country. We flat out murdered them for our country... and they get less in return for the atrocious behavior of our ancestors than we give to other minorities.

Look, I'm not going to deny that slavery is wrong... it was and is a horrible thing. I am going to say this... someone your age has NO RIGHT in my opinion to demand that the government afford them reparations for slavery when they've grown up LIGHTYEARS from the poverty, struggle and suffering of the slave class we once had in this country. Why should we dole out free college to someone in their 20's in today's America SIMPLY because they happen to have dark skin?

Let Us Discuss Race

fuscom — Thu, 24 Jul 2008 07:35:49

Let's be clear. I was offended and hurt to be labled as something I wasn't, not that I was being labled as belonging to any specific culture. I was equally offended when people wouldn't (even after being corrected) pronouce my last name correctly, or turn it in to a slur directed at me.

Sure the black culture has more negative experiences from history, I dont think anyone with half a brain would debate that. But the folks living here now, today, are dealing with racism in a similiar way -- they are being labled and treated in a way that does not gel with who they really are. I think that is something that can be empathized with across the racial boundaries.

Let Us Discuss Race

cooper — Thu, 24 Jul 2008 07:23:54

You're right that was a bad example.

I don't believe for one second that most Caucasians in this country have experienced what African Americans have experienced regarding racism.

There is nothing that will convince me otherwise.

So, when you were young you were offended to be called Chinese – interesting because Asians are another race I see and hear racist comments about all the time. Though many ethnicities went through times when they were the butt of jokes, the jokes ran their course in a generation, not to mention they weren't dragged here in chains, oppressed for two hundred years, freed with no restitution, and eons later still couldn't pee in the same public bathrooms as white men or vote.

Just look up derogatory or racist terms and see how many there are for Black people and how many for white people and other ethnicities combined. That alone should tell you something.

Let Us Discuss Race

RightOn — Thu, 24 Jul 2008 07:05:59

cooper, here's my basic point...

Everyone is entitled to an opinion, no matter how intelligent, or ignorant, it's THEIR opinion.

You may find my having an opinion on racism arrogant, I think that in itself is ignorant. Both are valid opinions.

You may have never experienced racism in your life first hand, but it doesn't mean your experiences can be applied as a blanket argument for all white people in general.

Same goes for anyone of any race.

...and fuscom was right, your little snipe at Novak was a cheap shot.

Let Us Discuss Race

fuscom — Thu, 24 Jul 2008 06:51:29

Cooper --

I think it's pretty unfair (disrespectful even?) to compare the treatment of a recognizable white male figure such as Novak to an everyday black citizen of Washington.

If black congressman Alan Keys was the person who struck the pedestrian, he would've no doubt received the same treatment as Novak. Shelia Jackson-Lee or Condoleezza Rice, both black women with arguably a higher public profile than Mr. Rice or Mr. Novak, probably would have been treated even better.

edit--
I'm in the same boat as Right-on. I'm mostly italian and have a darker tone. If I spend a good amount of time in the sun, I probably get close the same tone as Scrivs. When I was a kid, my eyes were kinda "squinty", so I spent the better part of my childhood with dark, olive skin and squinty eyes...I cant tell you how many times I was the butt of the "me chinese, me play joke..." song by other kids.

Yeh...white folk cant possibly understand racism...right.

Let Us Discuss Race

RightOn — Thu, 24 Jul 2008 06:51:28

I think it is not for people who are Caucasian to opine about an experience they have never had. I see it as arrogant to do so.

Ahhhh, us white folk have never experienced any racist acts aimed at us... nope, nothing at all. PLEASE

There are people of all colors on this planet who have NEVER heard, seen or been the victim of racism... I guess they don't get an opinion either by that logic.

I have had my fair share of racist (misguided but racist) slurs hurled at me and they weren't fun. I have a dark complexion for a white guy of German decent. I lived in Nebraska for almost 2 years of my life and went to a school where 99% of the kids could disappear in the milk case at the grocery store. Because I was a great deal darker than they were, it was assumed by the kids that I was Hispanic (being able to speak Spanish didn't help). I had rocks thrown at me from cars, my house vandalized and many other things aimed at me and my family. Please don't ASSUME that simply because I am a Caucasian man that I cannot have an opinion on this subject... doing THAT would be ignorant.

Let's see what happens to Robert Novak for hitting that pedestrian and then taking off.

Hmmmmmm, can we list off the number of downright illegal and disgusting things folks like Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton have been given a pass on simply because of their "position"... oh wait, they're not white are they.

Robert Novak will get a pass on his actions because of who he is, not the color of his skin. Had someone of another racial makeup, in his position done the same thing chances are, they'd be getting the same pass.

Had I run someone down in my car... you bet your butt I'd be in jail right now.

Let Us Discuss Race

cooper — Thu, 24 Jul 2008 05:05:26

I think it is not for people who are Caucasian to opine about an experience they have never had. I see it as arrogant to do so.

I think society in general is very disrespectful to human beings of all races and we have become pretty ugly.

White people in this country are really the only peoples who have institutional authority though, so it is not a falsehood it is truth.

Let's see what happens to Robert Novak for hitting that pedestrian and then taking off. If an African American resident of D.C. had hit that pedestrian and had to be run down by a cyclist - and then lied about it saying he didn't know he hit him despite the fact that the guy rolled of his windshield – as stated by many witnesses, I imagine he'd be in jail right now, maybe without bond.

Let Us Discuss Race

estarla — Thu, 24 Jul 2008 02:54:28

I think the more dialogue there is about it, the better. People need to sound off on why they're offended and the unintending offenders need to sound off on why they didn't mean any offense. In order to do that, complete, coherent thoughts need to be formed inside peoples' heads to make these arguments plausible. And then further discussion needs to result in order to come to some sort of agreement or even an agreement to disagree.

Misunderstandings happen when people don't communicate. Racist people are not interested in communicating because they'd rather be locked up in their own little insular environment where they think they're safe and comfortable - and you can easily tell the "wrong" people by how they look. They are of the "us vs. them" mentality. The place we're trying to get to is of the "we" mentality.

I have tons of stories from growing up as one of four Asians in a Wisconsin high school of 1400 students mostly of German and Polish descent. And that's not even counting grade school or middle school. But instead, I will tell a story about a really poignant moment that happened at the Hollywood Bowl.

My friends and I (who are Asian; they're my school friends from UCLA) got to our seats and other friends were already there. We were there with the food. We happened to bring curry. My friends who were already seated shouted while we were a few feet away, "What food did you bring?"

I answered, "Curry. Cuz we're Asian. And all we eat is rice."

These black ladies heard us and started cracking up really, really hard. We looked at them and smiled. They smiled back, and held up pieces of fried chicken.

When people stop taking themselves so seriously because we're thinking about the other person (not just ourselves) and want understanding - this is when the true dialogue happens.

As for the lady who took offense about being dark being a bad thing - well I can "see" why she would take offense and I would try and sympathize with that but I would remain confident that I meant no harm. I wouldn't necessarily "fault" her for feeling that way, I guess. It's one of those unfortunate situations. Like Tyme said, I go out of my way to NOT apply everything to myself. That would be taking myself way too seriously.

And as for blacks being incapable of being racist, that's an out-and-out lie. What a crock! Racism is about assumptions, and everyone has their own crap they have to put up with as far as things people assume about them. The most common one I still get is the assumption that I could not have possibly been born in the States.

Let Us Discuss Race

fuscom — Thu, 24 Jul 2008 01:05:40

I tend to think that racism breeds not with those who dish it out, but more so on those who receive it -- and that it goes beyond color to everything (although prejudice is probably the better word there).

For example, If the power of racism were in the hands of those who dole it out, then no person who's black (for example) would succeed. However, given that there are many successful black folks out there, proves that racism can be transcended.

As another example, you use God in some interesting ways in your post which some people might find comes from a prejudiced viewpoint to their own. Other folks of the same ilk might not be bothered by it at all. It depends on how it's perceived, and the emotional makeup of the receiver.

It frustrates me that racism always seems to boil down to black and white, when honestly, I think a case could be built for any shade of skin having something against another shade. Racism and prejudice, unfortunately breed from eons of broken promises, vendettas, unfulfilled expectations, let downs, over achievers, being naive...As long as those things exist, in other words, as long as we're in the rule of man and the law of "at some point man (humanity) will let you down", there will always be prejudice of some sort.

Let Us Discuss Race

RightOn — Thu, 24 Jul 2008 00:59:23

Ozone... I've heard that comment about blacks being incapable of racist thought and behaviors more times than I care to recall.

It just baffles me.

Humans don't get along with other humans most the time... no matter what color they are.

My question to the last person who said that black people cannot be racist because they lack the institutional authority was "Well then, if Obama becomes our next President, a position regarded as one of the most powerful in the world... does that automatically give them the "authority" thus suddenly making them capable of racism?"

Let Us Discuss Race

jensized — Thu, 24 Jul 2008 00:58:59

Interestingly enough...
I just went on a bank/Starbucks run. As I was waiting for the light to change this car full of black girls, probably about my age, pulled up next to me.
One of the girls yelled "Ay you white bitch with the Starbucks! F*ck you!"
After I turned around and gave her the WTF? look (which was met with a snarl) I wondered what the hell I did to deserve that. Be white? Drink Starbucks? And how did she know I was a bitch? And then I wondered if I'd been wearing a jersey and Dunks (trust me I'd rather) instead of a dress, would she have said the same thing? It was so transparently racist – it really took me aback. Being a minority here has definitely given me some perspective.

Let Us Discuss Race

JPhill — Thu, 24 Jul 2008 00:41:29

I don't really let my race hold me back, but there are definitely situations where race comes to mind. Like RightOn, I treat people the same way they treat me. I don't really get offended easily unless someone is just being extremely ignorant.

Let Us Discuss Race

Ozone42 — Thu, 24 Jul 2008 00:28:48

"Institutional Authority," has nothing to do with racism. A single person is racist or not.

Now if you want to oppress a group of people, yeah you need some sort of institution or another larger or more powerful group to do it.

Let Us Discuss Race

RightOn — Thu, 24 Jul 2008 00:05:46

I've never understood why people get so offended so easily.

From my personal experience I've seen black individuals play the race card around me the most followed by Native Americans, then Hispanics. I've not seen much from any others.

I could care less what race/nationality you are... I treat you as I'm treated by you.

The one thing I DON'T get is when I hear people say things like "Black people can't be racist because they lack the institutional authority"... as if White people are the only race of humans on Earth that have the ability to be racist.

Let Us Discuss Race

Scrivs — Wed, 23 Jul 2008 23:38:14

That's the thing, so many people like to think it really effects them when others make a comment. And if you really want to make this about race are you the upstanding citizen giving your race the good name?

Let Us Discuss Race

Tyme — Wed, 23 Jul 2008 23:10:16

I don't take that extra step and apply everything to me. I would have heard the comment and thought he wouldn't have looked good, this guy I've never seen and have no real idea what they are talking about. Personally, I've seen some people tan so much their skin looks like leather. That's what I would have thought of.

I wouldn't have place "me", my race, my struggles, my hopes and dreams, frustrations, etc. into the equation because it wasn't about me. When I see/hear a black joke it's a joke, it's not about me. When a joke is made about me, it's a joke. I know the spirit in which it is made.

Let Us Discuss Race

Scrivs — Wed, 23 Jul 2008 22:59:24

I can see how someone would take offense to that, but I don't think they should. I could see me making a smart ass comment in my head and letting life go on because I knew what the person meant. Hell, nevermind I would've joined in the joke with them.

Let Us Discuss Race

Ozone42 — Wed, 23 Jul 2008 22:49:26

Really just depends on the people you're around. I don't really think about race in most cases. I'm sure I've said plenty of things that the right people would find very offensive.

A friend just told me a relevant story though. She's in a water aerobics class, and was chatting with someone near her.

The lady asked my friend "why don't you ever bring your husband along?"
Her response was "Oh, he doesn't need any more sun. He's already very tan, and if he gets any darker he will start to look really bad."

There was an immediate kind of strangled throat clearing which made her look around. There was a black lady behind her, giving a very evil eye.

Of course she didn't intend it as an offensive remark. She's right, her husband would look terrible if he got more tan, but it's not because dark skin looks bad, just his specific colouring. But instead of taking an innocent remark like that at face value, it became racially offensive. I assume the lady that took offense had lots of experience with racist remarks for her to be so sensitive.

Let Us Discuss Race

Scrivs — Wed, 23 Jul 2008 22:30:46

In the article clipped above I talk about how sometimes black people can push the race issue a bit too far. Now all races at one time or another push the issue a bit too far and blacks just happen to be my example so far. Being a person of mixed heritage (black and white) I have it a bit easier than others in that I find I can say whatever around anyone without getting glares or shocked expressions.

But in your life do you find you have to watch what you say around different races? Even if I'm around asians for example I will crack an asian joke because if they cracked a black or white joke I would laugh just the same. We aren't all equal because we are different colors just like you don't like all the crayons in the box. It's going to happen that people pick one color over another.

Like I said, God is enjoying this fiasco. What I want to know his how race effects you in your life? Could be in work or personal life. Does it hold you back, does it make you uncomfortable or do you just pretend nothing is there?