WingColors

Not to me, I carry my driver's license wherever I go. Drudge said that this would "be harmful to Obama" .... I guess because his only supporters in Indiana are the poor who cannot afford a photo ID? WTF?

I'd have to say people need to get over it. I have to show my photo ID to buy groceries for heaven's sake (or any other goods on a Military post, say a CD, grass seed, cat food, gas, whatever). Yeah, it's a total PITA sometimes (and don't get me started on the little sergeant who treated me like a common criminal when I thought I'd lost my ID once), but it's just how it is.

Sounds like one of those things where these people really just don't WANT to vote, but feel they need some sort of excuse to validate their inaction.

If you can't afford $30 spread over five to ten years, then voting really shouldn't be a concern on your mind. Finding a way to eat should be primary.

To the question you asked in the title... It's the wrong question. Of course Americans ~15-45, who have enough time to visit 9rules/Chawlk will not be burdened by such a ruling. We, as you say, need them quite often and can easily afford the time/money to get them.

I'm very interested in your claim of having seen someone vote multiple times in an hour. At the same polling station? Without the volunteers noticing? Really?

Yes, multiple people saw him, reported it and got "eh, whatcha gonna do" from the people running the precinct. TOTALLY ticked me off, and it wouldn't have done a heap of good to call the police as he left when we brought it up.

In the beginning of Indiana's fight over this bill, Democrats were trying to smash it down by forcing people to PROVE fraud was taking place. The thing was, it had to meet their standards like "was a police report filed?" or "was the person apprehended?", which in most cases was impossible because it was verbal reports of abuse which met with much of the same enthusiasm as my incident met.

We, as you say, need them quite often and can easily afford the time/money to get them.

People who collect welfare/foodstamps need them in order to sign up for the program...

The elderly need them for Medicare in order to register for the program and when they use the program.

If you can't afford an ID, you still need one to get government benefits and in some states, low income families can qualify for reduced cost or even FREE ID's.

...not to mention, I have yet to see a single minority get turned away at the DMV looking for an ID so this whole "inaccessibility" thing has me confused.

Where are these masses of people just yearning for an ID that's being denied to them. Hell even people with revoked drivers licenses can still obtain a State ID Card with their mug on it.

Do you think a flash of your ID would be a burden on your experience voting in a state or federal election? Do you agree that needing an ID would block minorities, poor folks and the elderly from voting?

No, because if those people want to vote bad enough, they will have the right stuff to do it. Otherwise those who don't vote won't miss out because of no id, they just never would have voted in the first place.

Personally, I do not see why the latter is even an issue. So many things in this world require photo identification that it's pretty difficult to simply exist without one beyond your late teens (hell even IN your teens these days), let alone simply voting. You can't buy alcohol, drive a car, write a check, heck even GET a bank account to gain ACCESS to those checks...

Well, it is an issue. I don't have a photo id that's "valid". I have a driver's permit from NY that expired 2005. I couldn't get a new id until this year because I ALSO didn't have my social security card (lost it). You can't get a copy of your SS card without a photo ID. You can't get a photo ID without SS card (unless you have a ton of other information to prove who you are, which if you don't have a SS card, or a VALID photo ID, you can't do!) And many things on that list you CAN do without an ID. I have a checking account (opened it without showing any id), write checks, cash checks, bought a car, buy alcohol and much more. If they instated this law in my area I may not be able to vote.

I have all the information I now need to get a new valid photo ID but not time to go and hang out at the DMV for half a day just to get my picture taken and maybe take the driver's permit test again.

I know my case is an extreme version but I wasn't able to get an new ID until the SS office messed up and accidentally gave me my social security card (I didn't show enough valid proof, but they were busy that day and happened to overlook that and give me my new SS card anyway). And you can't use your birth certificate to prove that you are who you are to get your social security card. I was told that "means nothing", it only "proves you were born".

It is no burden on me but it is definitely for the elderly who gave up their license many years ago. They do not even own a car anymore. If they could bring a telephone or cable bill in, would that suffice? Maybe a school tax bill or veteran benefit card...

I do agree there is voter fraud. From what I have read up to sixty four percent of voters have at least heard of voter fraud at their polling places. There is no indication that voter fraud however is costing election, there is indication that faulty equipment and poor election practices are more likely to cause significant problems during election yet that is not really being addressed.

In Indiana, my understanding was the type of ID required, not even veterans or armed service discharge papers are allowed nor are social security numbers. There is indication that the specific type of ID's required may indeed cause problems for the elderly, low income minorities - especially African American females ( usually Democrat), and students.

The best statement I've read on this was from the former political director of the Republican party in Texas - during last years controversy over id's in Texas.

what he said was, Now, I don’t personally care what party you’re in. If you have a policy that restricts legitimate voters, real voters who are going to the polls ineligible, and it doesn’t solve any problem we actually have, that’s not a policy that belongs in our system..

Seriously. Who can't afford a drivers license or equal photo id? If you're in that dire of a straight you are close to dying from starvation. My 87 year old grandmother has a non-driving photo id she renews every 10 years.

@Ozone42
The fact that you're poor or starving is hardly a good reason that you shouldn't be allowed to vote.

No, but It is an excellent reason to not be concerned with voting.

I know it is hard for some to understand it, but there is a a segment of the population without computers, or instant access to the information on what is expected of them.

Take the number of older citizens who show up at polling places to find they can not longer use their ss numbers or even their birth certificates, all these folks with working minds, but often no close family or friends, or their friends are also elderly with literally no access to transportation, and yes in some cases, though rare, unable to afford it.

Just because the elderly people you are related to, and I am related to for that matter, have a proper id does not mean that everyone can afford or manage to obtain one in the proper time frame.

Believe me I drove elderly voters to the polls to vote in this state a couple of years ago, and though they were solid in their belief in doing their duty they were not all aware of the current rules and regulations. Not one of the elderly I was working with had easy access to transportation, and there were significant number of highly educated though economically disadvantaged individuals in the groups I transported, add that to .. no transportation, no family, no access to computer, or knowledge of their use - this in wealthiest state in the Union.

I can see how it could be much worse in poorer states, and states where the population is not as educated.

Ozone42@ the 'poor and starving' folks, extremely concerned with the economy, employment and health insurance have a very direct reason to consider the election process vital. These are the people who need to register their opinions.

Cooper, could you please explain to me how requiring a certain ID card would cause an undo burden on a low income black woman?

The elderly point you made I can see, but in cases where you make DRASTIC changes to the voting process it's the burden of the state to inform the public accurately and I could even see and HAVE seen legislation that became null and void if the state failed to keep up their end of the deal and inform people about the change.

I simply don't understand how skin color can have ANY bearing on your access to a hunk of plastic.

If you look at the "poor" in our country compared to poor people in other countries it's a STARK contrast... the mass majority of our poor citizens own a car, climate control in their homes, large televisions, computers etc. If you can afford those things, you don't have an excuse for claiming you cannot buy a slice of plastic with your mug on it.

(and for the record, Indiana has or will have a FREE ID card program for low income individuals who need an ID)

I don't think we are talking about the same level of poverty here. Even if most states did not have a free or discounted id program (which they do,) we're talking about 20-30 dollars expense spread over 5 to 10 years.

Imagine the case where you can't scrape up a spare $30 over food money in the USA. It's a matter of priorities of course, but it's already been pointed out that you can't really get a bank account, job, or government benefits without certain ID's and this would fit all those bills.

The homeless in dallas area absolutely earn more than $30 a day when they are pan handling, or doing odd jobs around town.

There was a report on Drudge the other day of a teen that would pan handle early in the morning and earn $50 an hour...

If you can make that much an hour pandering to the emotionally weak in this country... how can you not find the time to acquire the materials needed to vote if voting is important to you.

Cooper, could you please explain to me how requiring a certain ID card would cause an undo burden on a low income black woman?

I'm not Cooper, but I do have a scenario - (and in this case skin color -or gender for that matter doesn't matter).

Say you're a single parent (the amount of children doesn't matter - but the more you have, the harder it gets). You're not even scraping by working 2 jobs. You don't have an education, so you work minimum wage jobs that you get nowhere in.

You have to take time off here and there when your child(ren) fall ill, or have school meetings, or your daycare flakes. You don't get paid time off.

You notice the rules have changed and you now can't vote without a valid id. You want to get one, but between shuttling your kids to/from school/daycare/home, getting from job 1 to job 2 (and even job 3), you don't have the time, and taking half a day to mess around at the DMV will possibly COST you money. (Your boss isn't understanding and perhaps finds a reason to fire you because you are "unreliable" because you often have to take time off of work because of your family/personal needs).

It's really not that unfathomable. There are people out there who are in situations where things aren't as cut and dry as "Oh I think I'll stroll down to the DMV today and get a new ID". Maybe the people who can't/won't/don't get IDs created their own problems and that's why they can't/haven't gotten a proper ID, but when it comes down to election time do we really want to omit their right to vote just because they don't have a proper ID???

And let's face it, if these people are adults and don't have a proper ID already and aren't working on getting one, these are probably part of the population who doesn't even care to vote anyway.

So do you think the people that can't find the time and money to get a photo id--which we've repeatedly pointed out is required for far more than voting--can find the time to register to vote in the first place?

It's often done at the same place, and time.

I think everyone's forgetting that photo ID's, by their very construct, alienate a large segment of the voter base:

Vampires.

I mean, seriously, how are they supposed to get a photo ID?

Man I TOTALLY forgot about vampires. Sheesh, that's going to be one MONSTER of a lawsuit ;)

It's often done at the same place, and time.

Orginally, but what if it's 8 years later and your ID has expired, and now your in a spot where you can't find the time to replace it?

And part of the point I was trying (I suppose unsuccessfully) to make was that the people who haven't got a valid ID probably will not vote for the same reason they do not have an ID. Lack of time/motivation/education/etc.

Cooper, could you please explain to me how requiring a certain ID card would cause an undo burden on a low income black woman?

I guess I didn't explain it properly, and really don't have time to because forums are like a cigarette break for me.

I'm not saying I'm against them over a long term ( you saw the point for the elderly) but there is a certain percent of African American female population ( African Americans females not being he sole females in this position, just the largest percent nation wide), who although the backbone of their family, working two jobs or more, using public transportation, and squeaking home a few hours at home in the evening with their kids, who would have just as hard a time, as many of the elderly in getting an id of this kind in a timely manner.

It's bothersome, as the gentleman from Texas in my last comment noted, if even three percent of the voters could be affected or disenfranchised.

I doubt the mother of three children working a couple of jobs is reading the paper or scrolling around leisurely on her computer and may not even be aware of this controversy until she manages to get to vote and is told her ss card and or birth certificate is not good enough.

I'm not sure how prevalent voter fraud is in Indiana, but from what I've been reading, and I just started reading last night, I am not really up on this subject, the voter fraud problem is not the major problem or even he major fraud in election problems,so this seems like a potential slap in the face to a certain segment of the population.

There have been many studies on this over the last year, due to this pending judgment, the following mirrors most of them - 25 percent of adult African-Americans, 15 percent of adults earning below $35,000 a year, and 18 percent of seniors over the age of 65 do not possess a government-issued photo ID.

I don't believe it's a money issue as much as an access to place, time and availability of information issue.

I'd like to see how they carry this out in Indiana.

I don't believe it's a money issue as much as an access to place, time and availability of information issue.

So... motivation?

If something is important to you, you do it. If voting is important to you, you'd think you could find a way once every five to ten years, to have a couple hours to half day free to get a photo id.

I think what's a lot more important to note about this situation is the fact that the rules were changed in any fashion. It is highly likely the changed rules will be effectively communicated to the voting populace. That will affect votes on polling days, regardless of what the new rule is.

Frankly, I think the argument against the specifics of the rule change are completely ridiculous. I think these people are barking up the wrong tree. The real issue is: "How will you make sure everyone knows that long enough before polling day?"

I think people should have to prove who they are, but I don't necessarily believe that that has to mean a photo ID. A photo ID would be ideal, I think, but there are numerous scenarios where you can bring your birth certificate or Social Security card to prove your identity. The problem with using the latter two in voting situations is that not everyone will be qualified enough to spot a fake, and so, again, photo ID is ideal if it's voter fraud we're concerned about.

As for cases where having a photo ID closes out some from voting...I think this is a poor argument. We must weigh the priorities here. I think it's more important to have fewer votes that are real, than to have a million votes, with 15% of them being fake due to voter fraud. If one method of keeping out voter fraud equals a required photo ID, and that makes it difficult for some to vote in one election, I am all for it. In my opinion, the positives would outweigh the negatives. Moreover, it's nearly impossible for me to believe that, with all the volunteers for voting issues in every city and podunk town that so many would find themselves in a bind if a rule changed. Information would be spread, help would be provided to those who needed it (if they asked for it), etc.

I'm less concerned with requiring people to flash an ID at the voting booths than I am with that ID being in the REAL ID program, but that's a whole other fiasco.

"How will you make sure everyone knows that long enough before polling day?"

That really is my point, those who are most likely not going to be aware of it are those who I listed. If there is a way to get information to those who do not read the paper, scroll the internet or even watch the news - whether it be due to their jobs or the fact they just don't have access or even desire - that is would seem reasonable but to institute a policy what does not take into account all those issues is not wise. That is why I said I want to see how they initiate and complete this.

And as to motivation, sure if given a long enough period of time the motivated will get it done. But no matter how motivated a woman, with three kids, who works two jobs - and please don't tell me it is not usually the case because in the case of African American woman it most certainly often is - doesn't own a vehicle, and relies on public transportation and has no child care it might be something which needs to be planned months in advance. I'd like to see a program that would account for this and for the elderly in my previous listed situations.

It is important the information on the requirement is disseminated in a timely manner, and there is a workable plan for helping those who may have a more difficult time getting to and from. Getting the information out is the priority though.

Just wanted to say that I was curious about this a bit more and went searching to find out just how many Americans don't have photo IDs. According to this (so obviously, a forum is not exactly a reliable source, but okay), it's 11 to 19 million. Gotta love when the range is that wide.

That aside, I still wanted to have an estimate of how many that would actually affect. Voter turnout, then, needs to be addressed. In recent years, it's been around 55% for the nation; according to wiki, 10-15% less for midterm elections. That means that probably somewhere around 6 to 10 million (or fewer) in the nation, not just Indiana, would actually be affected by requiring a photo ID. According to wiki, states with easier voting procedures that have fewer requirements, have higher voter turnouts, but I question whether that's because more people show or more people cheat the system. No way of knowing, really.

I have to say that not only do I believe it wouldn't be an issue for most of these individuals to get some form of photo ID, but also that a voter-rights law that affects that few is really good.

Maybe there is a way. The populations described may not fit this idea at all but when kids are 18 years old in 12th grade, guidance counselors and teachers (whichever social studies is part of the 12th grade curriculum) have them fill out the correct form to register to vote. I do figure if a student really is in 12th grade it says they did not quit school, are not illiterate but maybe poor and not all are in the middle of college application process. Anyway, a percentage of people could be taught and formally register. The photo ID is already part of yearbook stuff or lunch cards...